[Church_of_Christ] Re: The essence of worship
Hey Ray, hope you've enjoyed this day as much as I have!
Happy Resurrection Day! Amennnnnn my brother! Amen!
He is Risen! Yes he has!!!!!!!!!!!
Ray said:
I think it is time for me to ask you a few questions and make a few comments
that strike at the heart of this issue. So far, I have been dancing on the
edges, trying to figure out where you are coming from. So here goes:
1. Where do you get the idea that worship changes between the testaments? You
keep saying that worship law is not given in the NT. Why does it have to be?
The OT worship law worked for the Jews. And there is no need to repeat it.
He is Risen! Yes he has!!!!!!!!!
Ray said:
I think it is time for me to ask you a few questions and make a few comments
that strike at the heart of this issue. So far, I have been dancing on the
edges, trying to figure out where you are coming from. So here goes:
1. Where do you get the idea that worship changes between the testaments? You
keep saying that worship law is not given in the NT. Why does it have to be?
The OT worship law worked for the Jews. And there is no need to repeat it.
Clay's responses will be in red
.Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
I know this is going to open a can of worms, but maybe it's time. Why do
you distinguish between edification of self/others and worship of God? In my
view, assemble for edification and assemble for worship are the same thing.
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
I know this is going to open a can of worms, but maybe it's time. Why do
you distinguish between edification of self/others and worship of God? In my
view, assemble for edification and assemble for worship are the same thing.
Hebrews 10
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Again, we are never commanded to assemble to WORSHIP God!
We are FREE to worship God physically how ever we see fit. It just seems strange to me WHY we want
to get together, limit what may be done and WATCH one another worship God.
3. Is your real issue that there is no specific use of the English word
"WORSHIP" in a verse? Is it because there is no explicit "Assemble for Worship"
that you make your argument?
I have no problem with what you, Bro Ed or anyone else calls it when we assemble on Sunday, Saturday
or any other day. What bothers me is when men that suppose to know better misleads followers
and just out and out misleads them by "TELLING" them that God commands followers in the Bible that
and just out and out misleads them by "TELLING" them that God commands followers in the Bible that
we are commanded by God to assemble for "WORSHIP" on Sunday and that only 5 sacred rituals may be performed in order for God not to strike us dead at the Judgement as if we were still under WORSHIP LAW.
I do the same thing that you and Bro Ed do on Sunday! EVERYTHING! The difference is, I do so FREELY
under the over site of my eldership and not as if I am still under a type WORSHIP RITUAL LAW that the Jews were under.
I haven't figured out what denomination you are part of and it really doesn't matter BUT if your leadership
has placed that burden on you they have NO BIBLICAL reason to teach that. I pray you guys are not divisive
over the matter if another brother disagrees with you.
4. Your references to private worship are a red herring in this discussion.
The fact that you CAN worship by the Spirit in private has nothing to do with
God's expectations on the assembly.
I do not know of any teaching from the inspired writers that followers must assemble on Sunday for worship.
If I have over looked it, could you post it here: _____________________________ and then let's as the group discuss it?
5. Romans 14:5 has nothing to do with this discussion at all. You made the
point in a post to someone else that this verse indicates that observing days is
no longer required. This shows me that the historical/cultural context of this
verse might be foreign to you. Here's why:
The Jewish people had specific worship days,feasts, and festivals that they were
to observe. As Gentiles came into the church, which was 100% Jewish for 15
years, the Jews were trying to make the Gentiles follow the Law of Moses.
Paul's point is that the observance of Jewish customs/traditions/law is
completely up to the individual, whether Jew or Gentile. This passage is NOT
saying that observing DAYS is no longer required. It is not a LAW forbidding
the observance of DAYS, nor does it FREE men from REQUIREMENTS of days.
point in a post to someone else that this verse indicates that observing days is
no longer required. This shows me that the historical/cultural context of this
verse might be foreign to you. Here's why:
The Jewish people had specific worship days,feasts, and festivals that they were
to observe. As Gentiles came into the church, which was 100% Jewish for 15
years, the Jews were trying to make the Gentiles follow the Law of Moses.
Paul's point is that the observance of Jewish customs/traditions/
completely up to the individual, whether Jew or Gentile. This passage is NOT
saying that observing DAYS is no longer required. It is not a LAW forbidding
the observance of DAYS, nor does it FREE men from REQUIREMENTS of days.
The only point here is dealing with making Gentiles observe Jewish days.
If Romans 14:5 does not refer to Gentiles in general an does not concern US, Then where is the teaching that Gentiles MUST, under a NEW LAW assemble on Sunday and WORSHIP God? In fact, the verse
How do you explain when we read:
.Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not ................ in the old way of the written code.
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not ............
It seems to me that Paul restates this makes it even more clear that when we worship in spirit, we are
NO LONGER UNDER A LAW to worship physically. We can FREELY but not as if we are commanded to do so. As I said before, we are commanded to assemble for edification and to encourage one another.
<>BEGIN TEXT BY Clay
<>BEGIN TEXT BY Clay
Galatians 5
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
<>END TEXT by Clay
Here's what I do not understand, WHY are we all so divided? Why is there so many factions, so much
dissension between the various denominations? Why do we sow discord with one another when we all
are to be followers of the Christ? We know we will not enter the Kingdom of God if we keep it up!
If you use the instrument when you assemble, many of "US" would tell you, you are going to hell.
If you do not take the Lord's supper every Sunday and ONLY once on Sunday you are going to hell.
Know why we do that? Because we FAIL MISERABLY to follow the scriptures and we each, each divisive group makes up rules that the Holy Spirit NEVER taught!
It is a SIN to be divisive! If you do not think so read this last text. They will NOT enter the Kingdom of God!
Ray: You misunderstand me...you have made it a LAW that physical is irrelevant.
That is just as much a LAW as the 'man-made' rules you reject.
That is just as much a LAW as the 'man-made' rules you reject.
Here's where you are misunderstanding me. We are FREE to do "PHYSICAL"
What bothers me is that for others to bind on me what the scriptures do not teach and are divisive with me and others because we do not necessarily agree.
As far as God never requires us to worship like the Jews, I say yet again, why do you assume a
change in worship? You seem to think that God has to make laws in the NT for
worship if we are going to be under them. Why do you think this?
Because we are FREE to do them, any of them that man decides as LONGGGGGGG as we are NOT divisive with other followers.
change in worship? You seem to think that God has to make laws in the NT for
worship if we are going to be under them. Why do you think this?
Because we are FREE to do them, any of them that man decides as LONGGGGGGG as we are NOT divisive with other followers.
Thanks Ray for allowing me to explain.
Grace and peace Clay
__._,_.___
Participation guidelines: List policies are posted in the files area as listpolicies.html
We don't want to see you go, but if you must, the address is Church_of_Christ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
We don't want to see you go, but if you must, the address is Church_of_Christ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
MARKETPLACE
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
.
__,_._,___
Post a Comment