Family of God: Re: [Church_of_Christ] Spiritual gifts

heb12347 wrote:

Greetings Kent, ED replying,

Kent: I might point out that this was only one of three ways that spiritual gifts were bestowed in the first century:
1. Laying on of the Apostle's hands (Acts 18:8, 2 Tim 1:6). This particular method died out with the death of the last Apostle.

ED: "charismata" or spiritual gifts were outward manifestations of power given by the laying on of an apostle's hands. This is clearly the point of Acts 8. So in this we are in agreement.

Agreed.

Kent: 2. An unexpected gift from God (Acts 2:1ff; Acts 10:44-46).

ED: Acts 2 was a manifestation of the HS unique to the apostles. They had been promised the baptism of the HS and they received itin vs 2-4. Everyone who was baptized also received the HS, but without the outward manifestation unique to the apostles. This is evident in that the signs and wonders were done thru the apostles, v 43. Moreover 5:12, 13 emphasizes the same point and gives the reson, to establish the authority of the apostles to lead the disciples.

Which doesn't change my contention that one of the methods by which spiritual gifts were bestowed in the first century was as an unexpected gift from God, nor does it change the implication that God can give gifts where and when He so chooses. (Note that I did not claim that He is currently giving gifts in this manner. But I do claim that He can if He so chooses.) (I might also point out that the manifestation in Acts 2 was not "unique to the apostles"; Peter claims in Acts 11:15 that the "Cornelius Event" was "just as on us at the beginning". I would agree though that it was fairly unique, having only been recorded as happening twice.)

I did not claim the Holy Spirit given at immersion was one of the methods used, and therefore the rest of your response here is inapplicable. (But it is good information.)

Kent: 3. By earnest desire (as implied in 1 Cor 14:1,39) and request in prayer (implied in James 1:5).

ED: Certainly Paul advises them to desire especially prophecy since in the assembly it was most edifying, but this falls far short of showing it comes some other way than thru the apostle's hands.

Whereas there's plenty of room for interpretation of 1 Cor 14, it seems to me that Paul is encouraging the pursuit of spiritual gifts separate and apart from the pursuit of finding an apostle to lay hands on them. If apostles are necessary for the Corinthians to receive spiritual gifts, why would Paul tell them to desire such gifts in the absence of an apostle? Why would Paul tell them to pray for the gift of interpretation (v. 13)?

And Jm 1:5 has nothing to do with spiritual gifts at all. In context James is talking about the wisdom that comes thru enduring trials and hardships.

I can see your interpretation. I'm not sure it's a correct interpretation. After all, Paul lists "the word of wisdom" as a spiritual gift in 1 Cor 11:8-10 (which most of us have taken to mean a "miraculous" form of wisdom).

However, just to clean things up, I'll remove James 1:5 as my "proof text" and replace it with 1 Cor 14:13.

The spiritual gifts of signs and wonders ended in the first century as prophesied.

I'll grant that I've not witnessed many "signs and wonders" in my life, and might easily conclude on the basis of my experience that you are correct that they've ceased. But I don't believe I can make that conclusion based on the Biblical text.

As concerns the prophecy that signs and wonders would end in the first century, I presume you're referring to 1 Cor 13:8ff, as this passage has been so interpreted most of my life. But on closer inspection, I see that this passage does not say "when the New Testament is completed, miracles will cease"; instead, it says that "when the completeness arrives, the incompleteness disappears", and when we know fully, we'll no longer need the crutches. (I, for one, do not yet know fully.) Please note that I am not saying that these signs and wonders are still happening today; I am saying that this passage does not teach what I've been taught all my life that it teaches.

To wrap up, I believe my original claim still stands: that in the first century, spiritual gifts were given in one of three ways:

1) by the laying on of the apostles' hands,
2) as an unexpected gift,
3) as a result of prayer for and pursuit of such gifts.

Whether any of those methods are still applicable today are debatable, but that debate is a separate topic from my original claim of three methods being used in the first century.

--
Kent

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