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Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians
Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster
Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 29 May 2009 07:26 PM PDT

That's right -- there is nothing about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute in the bible.

And there are no such things as devils.

Luke 8:2 "And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,"

So let's see -- jason is a deluded wing-bat who believes in invisible devils and he also is amazingly gullible and offers us erroneous information he acquired from bullshit doctrine.

You're an idiot jason with zero credibility.

--S.

Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 29 May 2009 06:37 PM PDT

Jason wrote:

Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute who was posessed by seven demonic entities according to the Bible.

Which Bible? Mine doesn't say anything about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute. Or have you fallen for an old Catholic lie?

P.S. Dead people tend to stay dead. I don't know who this "real Christ" buddy of yours is, but you might want to check his papers.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 06:32 PM PDT

Trent,
That feeling you get that tells you that many of the things done in the name of Christianity are wrong is you internal ethics. Trust it.

The idea you have that you should not blindly follow a religious tradition is your own intellectual reason. Trust it.

The idea you have that if god is good, but things done in his name are not, then organized religion has problems. This is called logic. Trust it.

You have been given a brain. Use it. Trust your own ethics, reason and logic. It is time to reject religion and any man made concept of a deity, which is all of them. It it time to reject the holy books.

You have the gift of reason. Trust it.

That is what you need to do, and that pretty much sums up my real-life experience that led me to reject religion. It simply does not make sense.

Good luck in your search. Life is better without the dogma.

Lance

Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 29 May 2009 06:16 PM PDT

My mom is a psychiatric nurse. She has a PhD, a masters in sociology, and has worked with the mentally ill most of her adult life. But she is also a very devout Christian.

I've had clinical depression for most of my adult life, and fell into a depressive episode a few weeks after coming out to my mom. Her advice? That I reconsider leaving Christianity!

Now, this is a professional mental health worker. She knows that mental illness is biological, and what it takes to treat it, but all her considerable knowledge went out the window because she knew that her son was an atheist. It was a stark lesson to me of how much even moderate Christianity fucks up the minds of otherwise very intelligent people.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 05:25 PM PDT

Dealdoctor -

OUTSTANDING! Thanks for sharing. I am now smarter than I was before reading your comments.

Thanks Again,

XPD

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 05:24 PM PDT

Hi PW,

"I'm advocating for UNDERSTANDING religion."

Really Wes, we get it and it's nonsense, a hollow crock.

What's to understand beyond that, apart from the dangerous fact that there are plenty out there determined to rope absorbent minds into the same delusional quicksand with screwy apologetics or promises and threats?

I see from one of your following threads that you won't be reading or commenting any more.
But I'll take a punt with this.

S.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 05:15 PM PDT

portland wes

I guess, in a nutshell, what I'm trying to say, if you're trying to convince religious people to leave religion, you won't succeed by calling them "idiots" and their beliefs "bullshit".

Maybe -- but the more people who come to the realization that religion and christianity -- in general -- is bullshit the better off we'll all be. Furthermore, I don't respect people who believe in magic-men who can supposedly save them or ANY of the deluded beliefs christians have or specifically, christians using god's supposed voice as their own to push many of their polluted agendas. All they deserve is ridicule -- something to be laughed at.

Anway, what the hell? There are enough assholes in the christian world, why should stick around this forum and listen to non-christian assholes like you spout their insults. I won't be checking back in to check your reply, but I'm pretty sure you'll be reading this soon . . .

Well just in case you do read this -- boo-fuckin-hooooo.

Just another drive-by whack-job christian who vomits up unsubstantiated bullshit.

Buh-bye.

--S.

Re: Broken dreams - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 29 May 2009 05:10 PM PDT

mila wrote:

So, Gomez, go back to your cult please. You're not helping.

I don't know about that. Ramos did ask for Xian responses, and I think that J. Gomez gave a decent answer, without preaching (unlike Jhon the semi-literate drone, below). While you are correct that Gomez cannot see the big picture from inside the Xian bubble, that doesn't mean that s/he has nothing to offer.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 05:00 PM PDT

Hi Boomslang,

"We don't set out to "become" atheists, do we? For me, Atheism is a result of my own thoughts, yes, but it is not a "choice". Anyone?"

Yes, I agree.
For me it was a process of elimination.

That 1+1= anything believers want it to at any given time was confounding and patronising.

The uneasy swallowing of all the supernatural stuff was extremely frustrating.

Glossing over all the bad behaviour was dishonest and related to moral bankruptcy.

And needing to concede to the automatic entitlement-to-respect of the believers was and is a bloody liberty.

So, coming to the logical conclusion that ALL the dogma systems are insupportable weasel-tosh, and that I'd been a silly fool, was a great relief.

Sort of like hitting your head against a brick wall. Lovely when you stop.

I enjoy your writing. It's elegant.

Steve.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 03:21 PM PDT

...and hence why many of us are no longer believers.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 02:51 PM PDT

No doubt you were just as opinionated, controlling, insulting and insufferably arrogant as a pastor as you are now. What's changed?

I wasnt' defending the faith by explaining how my family was changed, I was only saying people have other reasons for staying in a religion other than intellectual ones, and they are very strong emotional ones.

Anway, what the hell? There are enough assholes in the christian world, why should stick around this forum and listen to non-christian assholes like you spout their insults. I won't be checking back in to check your reply, but I'm pretty sure you'll be reading this soon . . .

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 02:41 PM PDT

Trent,

I am glad you are concerned about the rear view mirror of Christianity. You might find www.hiddenfromhistory.org a good start to seek the "kindness" done in North America by Christians as late as the 1800 to millions of American Indians. The MP3 files in the course on Religious genocide at the bottom right of the website will give you the "reasoning" that made this kind of action by Christians possible. I am sure you saw the recent articles in the New York Times about the abuses in the Christian Reform Schools in Ireland that reflect the same abuses.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_eu...

Want to know how and why all this can happen. Take the time to read the philosophical and theological underpinnings in the course at www.hiddenfromhistory.org in that course on the bottom right of the website.

Hey, there was a recent poll that showed that Evangelical Christians were more likely to support torture than the average population. What is wrong here? See http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-09-1...

Fundamentalist Christianity will not face the clear contradictions of Scripture but some honest Liberal Christians who do see the flaws in the Good Book have no real foundation anymore for their religion. Modern Science destroys the worldview of the Scripture and in depth biblical literary historical criticism clearly identifies contradictions in the Bible earlier generations could not see.

Try making any sense from the various Resurrection stories in the Gospels. Put them side by side and see if you can do a reasonable timeline. Was the Crucifixion before or after the Passover meal? How do the appearances in Galilee and Jerusalem work out in the time permitted?

Reason and Faith might allow for a Deistic view of "God" but the personal God of traditional dogma is but a "cartoon God" in light of today's world.
How can the Infinite and Eternal have any defined limited meaning? We can not think in those terms so it is irrational to ask us to believe in that which has no image in our minds. What kind of person is possible that has no definable limits?

On the other hand, to assert there is no God at all can not be supported by reason. We simply do not know and are agnostics. BUT to think the God of the Bible who is in Christian dogma taught as all loving, all powerful and all knowing cannot be logical in this world of mass suffering. There has never been a solid answer to the problem of Evil. The Biblical doctrine of Hell does not do much to support that all loving stuff either.

God as Inscrutable and Ineffable and far beyond any human conception is certainly possible BUT that is no evidence that God is an actual real entity. This God is certainly not a thing and indeed as a "spirit" a NO-thing which is fully equal to NOTHING at all. Are we to believe in nothing? You know the absence of evidence is evidence of absence idea is really quite logical. Works for fairies and elves right?

Liberal Christianity knows all this and becomes a "Be nice club" with nothing for authority but feelings of humanism and a pick and choose Jesus with no solid historical facts. Christians have never had a lock on "nice " anyway and indeed have at times been very un-nice. So why call liberal Christianity Christian at all?
Christianity along with all other religions is dogma. Dogma from the Nazi's, the Mormons, Communists or believers in Zeus asks us to put reason on hold and believe an authority that has no evidence for its assertions. If belief in the the tales of priests will not work for Zeus then why for any of the 10,000 other gods and their priests? If not for Osiris, Adonis, Tamuz, or many other dying and rising gods then why for Jesus who lives out the same outworn Savior template?

Prayer does not have any statistical benefit in well done scientific studies. Why do we not have testimonials on all the prayers that were not answered but only the few times it is answered. Playing the lotto is really not best for most people but some by chance do win. The Bible is questioned by scholars, Evolution questions man's special status in kind, Cosmology questions the Biblical worldview, Comparative Religion questions any uniqueness in Christianity, The problem of Evil challenges an all loving all powerful all knowing God to be as real as it is, Church history is full of con artists calling for faith instead of due diligence skepticism, Books of the Bible contradict almost every doctrine taught in other Books of the Bible and denominations scatter in various directions to prove that there is Biblical support on all sides of almost every religious question.

Logic says fundamentalism and violence are linked and that liberal Christianity has tossed or made into poetic metaphors all unique Christian doctrines leaving only the general virtues of love, which is certainly not unique to Christianity. Finally liberal Christians toss hell and believe in universalism which calls into question any reason for being a Christian when others who believe and do not believe may be and are as ethical. The best universities and the leading scientists have abandoned simplistic religion, which is the Biblical kind. Liberal Christianity is not uniquely "Christian" at all. Christian history is a tale of bloodshed, power brokers, and scandal no different from any secular powers history.

To say the problem is not with Jesus but with the church is a cop-out. There is no problem with any imaginary perfect hero who is the ideal of the individual theologian who is singing his praise at the moment. All the while Christianity, which is real, stinks like a skunk! Can you use pedophile priests, Inquisition, suppression of scientific truth, Bibliolatry , Crusades and bullshit in one sentence while standing on one foot?

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 02:36 PM PDT

Hello there Trent,

I'm just curious and so I am going to ask, What exactly are you "fed up" with with regards to xtianity? Also, what do you hope to accomplish by directing your book at xtians? How would having our stories help your cause? What would our stories illustrate to your intended audience?

Please enlighten us a bit more about what exactly your motives are in asking for our help. All of us are a bit taken aback by you asking us for our stories to use in a book written by a believer for believers. A little more clarity may give us some more information so that we can all make a better choice to either help or not.

Thanks,

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 02:31 PM PDT

BoomSLANG,

I made the choice :-) I chose to accept an objective reality, but there was a side-effect... I mentally lost my Supernatural Velcro Strip, now... fuzzy supernatural god concepts just don't stick anymore ;-)

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 02:09 PM PDT

I read Surprised By Joy and I thought C. S. Lewis was full of SH**. I do not believe that Lewis was ever an atheist.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 01:56 PM PDT

P W -

Don't be condescending to me! I understand what you are saying, I (and many others here) just don't agree with you.

I am a highly educated, ex-minister. I have a master's degree, from a nationally recognized seminary. I also have an MBA from a secular university in So. Calif. I was an ordained minister for 5 years and spent over 40 years as a Christian. I read all of the books. I UNDERSTAND RELIGION!

I also know that reasoning with christians is out of the realm of possibility. Go back a few weeks and read my three 'Letters' to my cousin the Pastor. I requested suggestions from everyone one this site, as to how to best 'Reason' with him. Nothing worked! Go back and read them, "Ex-Pastor vs. Pastor".

Many of us here are convinced that ridicule and insults are the only way to either 'Get their attention or Get rid of them'. You can try your sympathetic, understanding approach all you want......Just do it somewhere else!

We are not trying to convince people to leave religion. We are here as a support group for those who have ALREADY LEFT!

Go be a new age, liberal christian somewhere else! There, is that straight forward enough for you or is it 'beyond your ability to understand'?

See Ya,

XPD

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 01:51 PM PDT

Just following the conversation, I DID read CS Lewis' "Surprised by Joy." His story was pretty interesting, especially the descriptions of his relationship with his over-bearing and easily-disappointed father, but also his love for his brother, and the hours they would create fantasy worlds as children together. (It's been over 10 years since I've read it and I hope I'm representing it correctly.)

But in the end, his "joy" was a purely emotional experience, and the extent of his conversion (in regard to any deep thought or engagement with atheists) amounted to an appreciation that even the most atheistic of his academic comrades were impressed with a god who would allow himself to be killed for "love." That seemed to be to them a unique story at least, that CS Lewis used as some confirmation that the atheists even recognized, and reinforced his "joy."

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 01:40 PM PDT

Good point cipher. That is the one point that I find divides liberal Christians from the fundies. I can handle liberal Christians since they trust their own morals enough to know that the bible god is fictional, and thus make up a nicer god. Fine by me, since they don't tend to beat me over the head with their crap.

But I will add a second question to yours.

Trent, does hell exist? Is it a real place that some people will be sent to for eternal suffering?

You may be uncomfortable answering cipher's question, but there is a no reason you can't give a simple yes or no answer to mine. But really, it is the same question.

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 01:34 PM PDT

Ryan -

Exactly!

XPD

Re: Material Needed for a Book - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 29 May 2009 01:26 PM PDT

"Since when is this place about convincing christians about anything?"

Thank you.