[Church_of_Christ] Re: Holy Spirit 3
George:
<rbpesach09@
>
> George: Being "eyewitness to a miracle" changed Saul of Tarsus' mind. Why couldn't it change mine?
Saul of Tarsus believed the prophecies were for his day.
Saul of Tarsus believed in miracles for his day.
Saul of Tarsus believed Joel 2 was for his day.
You deny all three are for your day. You do not believe in miracles in the 21st century. Therefore, it would be irrelevant to you.
> Ray: We interpret our world through our convictions. If you honestly believe that you ARE open minded, then either you believe God's promise of gifts is for YOU, or you are in denial. YOu can't have it both ways.
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> George: If the promise was for me, shouldn't I have received what was promised?
If you don't believe the promise is FOR YOU, of course you would not receive the promise.
> Ray: Profound dodge ball....you deny their availability today. That is the topic.
>
> George: I believe God keeps His promises. If a supernatural gift was promised to me, I should have received one a long time ago.
Why? DID you believe the promise was for you? Were you expecting to receive a miraculous gift?
> Ray: You can't have it both ways. You are either open minded or you believe they ceased.
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> George: You're right! My mind is closed.
Thank you for the confession. Miracles do not convince the closed minded. Jesus said so. So does logic.
> Ray: You have no doubts. You are convinced that the gifts ceased. There is nothing to convince you concerning. Introducing you to someone would be a waste of their time and yours.
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> George: This is a copout. You don't see it but it is.
For your world view it is most definitely a cop out. YOu hold a self contradictory view. YOu believe that you can be both OPEN MINDED and CONVINCED that gifts ceased. You live in a self - contradiction. IT is normal to see my point as a cop out. You will not see the truth of it til you end the contradiction. EIther admit that a miracle would not convince you, or admit that the gifts have not ceased. Do one of these things, and my point will become self evident. Until then it is a cop out.
> Ray: Secular humanist hogwash. All gifts from God for ministry are supernatural. And Ed is dead wrong too.
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> George: What ministry? You can't even give me the name of one who has a supernatural gift so I may meet him. Who's he ministering to? Not me!
Keep the context george. I was responding to your point that some ministries are non-supernatural. You were claiming that some gifts of God for ministry are natural. I was disputing this.
> Ray: Jesus said it won't work. Logic says it won't work. I have done it before with others and it doesn't work. You have already judged and determined that miracles don't happen. Why would a real miracle convince you?
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> George: A miracle convinced Saul of Tarsus to believe on the resurrected Jesus. Show me the miracle worker and let me test his spirit to see if it's from God and judge for myself.
Paul believed Moses and Joel. Paul believed that Joel applied to him. You do not. You have already tested the PROMISE and determined that it is not for YOU. Testing the miracle is a circular argument for you.
> Ray: It won't work.
>
> George: Let me be the judge. Please!
You already HAVE judged. You judged the promise. A demonstration is meaningless.
> Ray: You have already judged them.
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> George: I haven't even met them.
You have met the promise and found it was not for you.
> Ray: Jesus says you won't have the faith. Logic says you won't have the faith. I say you won't have the faith. Yes, you won't have the faith. You've already made that decision before you witness the miracle.
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> George: Before Paul wrote half the Bible, he had made the decision that Jesus was not Christ. Then, he witnessed a miracle. Then, he changed his mind.
Paul believed in miracles. You deny them for the 21st century.
> Ray: You have already judged. Your conviction is set in stone. You know for a fact that all supernatural gifts ceased. Observing one won't change that for you anymore than for an atheist or agnostic or Buddhist or anyone else.
>
> George: Witnessing the supernatural changed Saul's mind.
Jesus said it would not change George's mind unless George believes the promise of JOel for George FIRST.
> Ray: To deny the availability of miracles is to close the mind. Simple as that. Demonstrations have no power over a closed mind.
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> George: Lack of a demonstration has the power to close an otherwise open mind.
Lack of demonstration if meaningless if you believe a promise.
A mind of faith remains open even if no evidence is EVER presented. Such is the meaning of faith. Such is the application of faith to a promise.
Ray
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