[Church_of_Christ] Re: Holy Spirit 3
George,
You are not an infidel and I do not think I'm dealing with one. What I am dealing with is a traditional cessationist who honestly believes he is open minded concerning the supernatural.
And you are wrong...dead wrong...you are not open...Jesus said so and so did you.
The simple fact is that you can NOT deny the promise of God concerning the supernatural as being for yourself and still remain open minded that it might happen. It's a self contradiction. Plus, my reference to Jesus' comments regards the principle of this very discussion.
Jesus' point is that if you deny any promise of God, any prophecy spoken, and yet ask for miraculous proof, it is useless. You DO DENY that the promise of the supernatural gifts is for YOU today in the 21st century. You do NOT believe that God gives those gifts to men today. Therefore, being an eyewitness to a miracle would not change your mind.
We interpret our world through our convictions. If you honestly believe that you ARE open minded, then either you believe God's promise of gifts is for YOU, or you are in denial. YOu can't have it both ways.
> George: Yes, I'm trying to persuade you but no, my opinions are not "dogma." I'm convinced that there is no man on the earth today who has the same supernatural gifts Paul and Peter had but I'm openminded enough to be able to acknowledge one if and when I were to meet one.
This wasn't a good start. If you are trying to persuade me, then it is dogma. QED. You can not be convinced that there is no man on earth today with gifts AND be open minded at the same time. QED
> Ray: You denied them(supernatural gifts) at least three times in this document alone: 1. You said you don't expect to find them(supernatural gifts) present today.
>
> George: Why should I? I've been looking all my life for believers who have supernatural gifts and haven't found any so far so what should I expect to find after this? That doesn't mean I'm in denial of those gifts. I believe with all my heart they were present in the first century.
Profound dodge ball....you deny their availability today. That is the topic.
> Ray: 2. You stated point blank they have ceased to exist today.
>
> George: I'll state point double blank that I believe their purpose was accomplished two thousand years ago and from then, they have "ceased to exist." That's what I believe.
You can't have it both ways. You are either open minded or you believe they ceased.
> Ray: 3. Your insistence that a lack of examples proves the end of gifts.
>
> George: Why don't you simply introduce me to just one person who can raise the dead by speaking a word or someone who can speak in an unknown tongue to them but known by anybody else or someone who can interpret a tongue unknown to them but known by anybody else. You can erase every doubt in my mind so, why don't you?
You have no doubts. You are convinced that the gifts ceased. There is nothing to convince you concerning. Introducing you to someone would be a waste of their time and yours.
> Ray: You deny the presence and avaialbility of gifts as surely as you affirm that your name is George.
>
> George: There are gifts that are still present and available but they aren't considered supernatural. Our dear brother ED has already written to you on this.
Secular humanist hogwash. All gifts from God for ministry are supernatural.
And Ed is dead wrong too.
> Ray: How would you know it(supernatural gift) is from God? And why would you declare it(supernatural gift) to be from God when you have already decided that He doesn't give them, that they are not active, and that there is no biblical promise to us? Your bold inconsistency speaks volumes.
>
> George: Just introduce me to the miracle worker and let me judge for myself. Is that too unreasonable?
Jesus said it won't work. Logic says it won't work. I have done it before with others and it doesn't work. You have already judged and determined that miracles don't happen. Why would a real miracle convince you?
> Ray: The fact that you don't expect to meet someone who has gifts is the final proof of your self-contradictions in this entire post.
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> George: Just introduce me to him.
It won't work.
> Ray: We are too sophisticated today for a real God who does real miracles and gives real supernatural power.
>
> George: I understand your argument but that doesn't change the fact that some gifts have fulfilled their purpose and have ceased to exist anymore.
At least you got the point.
> Ray: It's not a fact, George, and that's one more nail in the coffin of your supposed "openness" to the gifts.
>
> George: Just introduce me to whoever has a gift and let me judge for myself. How much more open can I get?
Your openness is a self contradiction. You have already judged them.
> Ray: Jesus Himself said if you don't believe Moses, you won't believe a miracle even if someone rises from the dead. The same is true here.
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> George: Well, I believe Moses, I believe Jesus performed miracles in the first century, and I believe He rose from the dead in the first century even though I wasn't there, I believe in the testimony of witnessess. Now, who is it that has a supernatural gift in the presnt day so I may meet him?
You don't believe the Joel prophecy or the promises of Jesus concerning gifts applies to you. Until you do, 1000 resurrections wouldn't matter.
> Ray: If you don't believe that the promise of Joel is for all believers, and if you don't believe that God still gives those gifts to people, a demonstation of every spiritual gift 1000 times over would not convince you.
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> George: Here I am believing a man rose from the dead two thousand years ago even though such things are immpossible and you're accusing me of not having as much faith as it would take to believe what I can actually see demonstrated.
Jesus says you won't have the faith. Logic says you won't have the faith. I say you won't have the faith. Yes, you won't have the faith. You've already made that decision before you witness the miracle.
> Ray: That's the nature of the supernatural. If you don't believe God's promise, demonstrations mean nothing.
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> George: Dear brother, I believe in God's promises, so you're not working with a total infidel. Now, introduce me to that person with the supernatural gift so I may test his spirit and judge for myself whether or not he is from God.
>
You have already judged. Your conviction is set in stone. You know for a fact that all supernatural gifts ceased. Observing one won't change that for you anymore than for an atheist or agnostic or Buddhist or anyone else.
To deny the availability of miracles is to close the mind.
Simple as that.
Demonstrations have no power over a closed mind.
Ray
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