[Church_of_Christ] Re: Holy Spirit 3
>
> George: I'm glad with what I believe to be true. If I'm trying to persuade you, it's because I want you to be as glad as I am.
If you are trying to persuade me, then what you hold is dogma.
> Ray: Second, doctrine is dogma by definition. If it isn't dogma, it isn't doctrine.
>
> George: To avoid any misunderstanding, let's define terms, shall we? My "doctrine" is what I teach and I teach what I believe to be true based on what I am able to understand. "Dogma" is authoritative and binding "doctrine" that must be considered as being absolutely true. I'm not stepping out of my understanding to bind on anyone what I believe to be true but may be mistaken. I'm simply glad with what I believe to be true and think it would be wonderful if others were even half as glad as I am.
This is a word game. You haven't changed the meaning of either term or made them less equal. In fact, this is philosophical slight of hand. You are trying to be openminded while having convictions. It just doesn't work.
> Ray: Third, I do indeed declare that those who deny the gifts are quenching the Holy Spirit, and will shout it louder the more such a thing is denied. The Holy Spirit is continually quenched in our churches today to the point of rendering the church powerless and ineffective in the world.
>
> George: Who's denying the gifts, me? No, I'm not. I know a gift when I see one and there are gifts I've never seen but only heard of from the testimony in the Scriptures. There are gifts though that I have seen. The power to exorcise demons, even Satan, the ability to speak in unknown tongues, the power to heal the blind and the lame and to raise the dead, are only a few that I've never seen and after many years of seeking those who might have those gifts, don't believe I ever will find one.
You denied them at least three times in this document alone:
1. You said you don't expect to find them present today.
2. You stated point blank they have ceased to exist today.
3. Your insistence that a lack of examples proves the end of gifts.
You deny the presence and avaialbility of gifts as surely as you affirm that your name is George.
> Ray: As for your arguments, you used examples to refute a position that is based on prophecy and promises. That doesn't work. The fact that we have no examples means nothing at all.
>
> George: Yes, it does. It means we have no examples but boy, oh boy, if we only did, what a difference that would make in my understanding! Yes, we have the prophets and the promises and what was promised has been fulfilled.
The fact that we have no examples doesn't affect God's promises or Jesus' own promises and prophecies.
> Ray: The gifts were given through a variety of ways, but God is the giver whatever human is involved.
>
> George: Yes, indeed. So? When I see one who has a gift, I'll know if it's from God. I've seen many who have gifts but so far in my life and experience, I haven't met one who raises the dead, heals the blind and the lame, speaks in tongues that haven't been learned, or has the ability to exorcise demons, even Satan, the devil and I don't expect to.
No, you won't. The argument is circular. How would you know it is from God? And why would you declare it to be from God when you have already decided that He doesn't give them, that they are not active, and that there is no biblical promise to us? Your bold inconsistency speaks volumes.
The fact that you don't expect to meet someone who has gifts is the final proof of your self-contradictions in this entire post.
> Ray: It is indeed our fault. WE have bought into science, reason, and so-called higher criticism. We are too sophisticated today for a real God who does real miracles and gives real supernatural power.
>
> George: I understand your argument but that doesn't change the fact that some gifts have fulfilled their purpose and have ceased to exist anymore.
It's not a fact, George, and that's one more nail in the coffin of your supposed "openness" to the gifts.
> Ray: Such things are ignored and scoffed at in the church. I don't care. I prefer a living God, whatever the church may say.
>
> George: We all "prefer a living God" over a dead one. God can and does live but I still haven't seen anyone exercise the power to raise the dead like Paul and Peter did in the first century. Maybe you have and if so, give me the name of that individual so I may contact him and ask for his service. If he isn't going to serve with his gift, what good is that gift anyway? If anyone has a gift to heal or raise the dead, let him use it to bring glory to God as Paul and Peter did in the first century.
>
Jesus Himself said if you don't believe Moses, you won't believe a miracle even if someone rises from the dead. The same is true here.
If you don't believe that the promise of Joel is for all believers, and if you don't believe that God still gives those gifts to people, a demonstation of every spiritual gift 1000 times over would not convince you.
That's the nature of the supernatural. If you don't believe God's promise, demonstrations mean nothing.
Ray
We don't want to see you go, but if you must, the address is Church_of_Christ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
Post a Comment