Re: [Church_of_Christ] Re: Holy Spirit 3
heb12347 wrote:
The gifts ended. History affirms it.
I believe your knowledge of history may be slightly askew.
Even those who claim the gifts today speak of a 2nd Pentecost, which is an admission that there was a new beginning of the gifts, which infers they ended and had to have a new beginning.
I'm unfamiliar with this claim, but then, I don't spend much time around those who claim gifts today.
Nevertheless, although I don't spend time with them, that doesn't mean I disagree with them. I'm not sure it's Biblical to claim that gifts have ceased. I used to be sure of that position, but in the past couple of years, I've realized that doctrine to be less Biblical than I had been trained to believe.
One of the key issues that bothers me is Acts 2. Peter says that the speaking in tongues witnessed by the Passover attendees was a fulfillment of Joel 2. Notice what the passage says (as quoted by Peter):
17 And it will be in the last days, says God,
that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity;
then your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams. (K)
18 I will even pour out My Spirit
on My male and female slaves in those days,
and they will prophesy. (L)
19 I will display wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below:
blood and fire and a cloud of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood, (M)
before the great and remarkable day of the Lord (N) comes;
21 then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Isn't a standard claim in the "Church of Christ" ("Sign Out Front" variety) that we are currently in "the last days"?
Okay, if that's true, then shouldn't God still be pouring out His Spirit on all humanity?
Does this passage not imply that the time period of prophecy and dreams and wonders is the same time period as when people can call on the name of the Lord and be saved?
Does the passage give any indication whatsoever that it's only for the sons and daughters and slaves of a single generation, that of the Apostles?
Look further at what Peter has to say:
1. You Jews in attendance at Passover are familiar with the ministry of Jesus.
2. You know Jesus was executed at your instigation.
3. You know God testified that Jesus was his spokesman, as demonstrated by miracles.
4. Now, let me tell you, this Jesus is no longer dead, but is risen, just as prophesied.
5. Therefore, all you Jews need to realize, God has made Jesus Lord and Messiah.
6. Ah, you're responding. Good. Here's what to do: Change your minds about the issue, and be immersed in the name of this Jesus, this Messiah. The result is that you will be saved, and that you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
7. This promise is for you, your kids, and for those far off, whomever God should call.
To what "gift of the Holy Spirit" was Peter referring?
Well, in context, the only Spirit mentioned previously in this passage is the very same one that would result in young men seeing visions and old men dreaming dreams (v. 17), and which was now being poured out causing the apostles to speak in tongues (v. 33).
To what kids was Peter referring?
Well, in context, the only sons and daughters mentioned previously in this passage are those who will prophesy when they receive God's Spirit (v. 17, and the special descendant of David (v. 30).
To what promise was Peter referring?
Well, in context, the only promise mentioned previously in this passage was the promised Holy Spirit poured out from the Father (v. 33).
Does this "prove" that "spiritual gifts" were intended for the entire Christian age, or for all Christians?
No. But it raises enough questions that I would be exceptionally hesitant to make the opposite claim, that spiritual gifts have ceased. This view uses a lot of human logic; the opposing view also uses a lot of human logic. Depending on which set of logic you choose to follow, you'll arrive at different conclusions. I instead choose to realize I'm just not smart enough to figure it out with 100% certainty. I would have preferred that God had given us a clear-cut statement of "Yes" or "No". But He chose not to do that, and so I'm left seeing both sides of the issue, having to straddle the fence.
----
Further, and unrelated to the above argument, I believe we err when we separate "spiritual gifts" into two categories, that of miraculous gifts (healings, tongues, etc) and that of "normal" non-miraculous gifts (teaching, business administration, etc). The Bible does not, as far as I can ascertain, make such a distinction. We've made the distinction, but the Bible lumps both types into one category: God-given spiritual gifts.
Paul even goes so far as to say that "to each one of us" was given grace, according to the Messiah's gift, just as prophesied, "He gave gifts to people" (Eph. 4:7-8, paraphrased)
If spiritual gifts have ceased, then whatever service we do, whatever teaching, whatever exhorting, whatever giving, leading, showing of mercy, being cheerful; these things are generated strictly by our own human natures, and have nothing to do with being modern-day gifts from God. I believe this view does violence to the scriptures, as well as removing God from interaction with His people (a view I grew up with, although everyone denied it).
In short, I used to believe like you, that spiritual gifts ceased in the first century, meaning "miraculous spiritual gifts". But since then, I've come to believe that perhaps there's more to this issue than I had dreamed, and perhaps God can do what He wants when He wants however He wants, and I should quit trying to force-fit Him and His actions into my preconceived notions based on human logic rather than clearly-stated scripture.
-- Kent West <*)))>< http://kentwest.blogspot. com
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