Sunday, October 4, 2009

Recent comments posted to http://ExChristian.Net

Recent comments posted to http://ExChristian.Net

Link to Recent comments posted to ExChristian.Net

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 07:48 PM PDT

Jari

My question to you is this: Have you or do you know if there is any study made about the current Christian miracle claims? I mean basically those extreme Charismatic meetings which report jewels materializing from thin air, instant weight loss, angel feathers from thin air, oils pouring from hands and gold/sapphire dust from bodies.

Holy shit-fire!! The CREATOR OF THE INFINITE UNIVERSE is just a third rate prestidigitator doing simple parlor tricks, like the kind of magic you would see at Max and Erma's on a Sunday night with the kiddies.

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." -- John Adams

--S.

Re: Christianity: fear, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and selfish greed - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 05:52 PM PDT

Seeker: Question: You don't believe that we have a creator that is capable of creating 15 billion galaxis, and earth and etc.

I don't believe in a "creator", period.

How did we all get here?

The species, itself, evolved from simpler life-forms. And "we", the living, are "here" because our biological parents had sexual intercourse.

How was earth formed...

Leftover gas from the nebula that made the Sun, is one scientific theory.

where did existence come from?

Nobody knows with absolute certainty, including you. Positing that "GOD DID IT!" is attempting to answer one question with another.

How do you know that you exist?

Let's pretend that I don't. How does this prove the existence of invisible, conscious creator-beings?

Is existence solely based on what the naked eye can see?

Perhaps not. Can the naked eye see "Allah"? How about invisible pixies? Maybe they exist, right?

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 05:26 PM PDT

I heard an ad for some outfit called "California Psychics", who claim that they have "Real" psychics, because they "test them".
Yet Randi still has his Megabuck.

Oh, they also promise if your reading isn't "the BEST you've ever had" then it's free.

Re: 10 Questions for Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 05:15 PM PDT

"It would do you good to take the time and actually try and understand scripture, and so many of your questions would already be answered by yourself."

I have taken the time to study it and try to understand it - thrice. Read it thrice cover-to-cover, the happy-feel-good bits (a.k.a. the gospels, acts, etc.) a few times more.

It did answer a lot of questions I had. One of them was that christianity was no longer on the list of options/choices to check out and study further. After reading it, and secretly wishing it to be true, atheism became again the deeply held conviction it had always been for me.

One question remained though: how is it possible that so many people fell for it....

Peter.

Re: A Personal Funeral - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 05:08 PM PDT

Sounded kinda Irish to me. Maybe it's cuz it wasn't very loud. Or maybe I'm crazy. I don't know ;)

Re: 10 Questions for Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 04:37 PM PDT

Dennis

It would do you good to take the time and actually try and understand scripture, and so many of your questions would already be answered by yourself.

Read it -- twice. This was what led me to my apostasy.

The bible is a spurious, collection of separate, ancient stories, written by differing men, using the -- supposed, voice of god, as their own -- so as to give it a bogus sense of credibility, and authority where there was none to begin with, which came together, slowly, over time, that dealt with how a primitive superstitious people understood, what god meant to them, during their own specific, time period and their own specific culture. Anything after that is interpretation, speculation or delusional gullibility, which gets us the perverted ideas, beliefs and agendas of so many christian religions. Your god is nothing but a human construct -- a figment of your imagination, a definition, based on your myopic, interpretation of scripture and flights of fancy.

The bible is riddled with major inconsistencies, contradictions, absurdities and atrocities, which demonstrates it was NOT written by or inspired by the awesome hand of god, but instead paints a portrait of your supposed ALL-loving god as a schizophrenic, evil, genocidal maniac.

That is why the bible and christianity in particular, is untenable. Their definition; their construct of god mirrors humanity with all it's faults. A god (an ultimate reality) shouldn't have all the faults of humanity; IT should be far above us at least in equaling the magnitude of the universe. If there is a god -- IT would have to transcend all thought; IT would have to be something that we can't even begin to imagine, let alone giving IT inept human attributes.

Additionally, I contend the bible is a morbidly inferior way of trying to get god's supposed ALL-important messages to his earthly children because it can be interpreted anyway someone wants. It's a virtual grab-bag where anyone can interpret or misinterpret it to push any agenda they desire.

Funny how so many christians who have vast and varying interpretations of the bible ALL contend that there interpretation is based on their understanding of scripture and is true also.

Considering the bible:
It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies. --Mark Twain

--S.

Re: Intolerable - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 04:13 PM PDT

Peter,
When I was in my early twenties, right after my deconversion, I was in a state of depression for about three years just because of this problem. I thought about suicide all the time.

I talked about it with a friend saying, "nothing mattered" - it didn't matter if I lived or died. His reply was, "Yeah, it doesn't matter, so what are you worried about?"

The fact that nothing matters can really be quite liberating. It means you can do all the stuff in life that you ever wanted to do and you don't have to worry about whether it's God's will or not. You only have to worry about whether it's your will.

You can travel around the world, you can get a PhD in physics, you can take up painting, you can learn the guitar and start a rock-band - anything you want!

The only thing is that in five billion years time when the Sun explodes and everything on the surface of the Earth is incinerated, everything that humans have ever done will be no more significant than the cockroach I stepped on this morning.


Concerning your comment about being captive of others, yes we do have responsibility to others based on the relationship we have with them. For example, sometimes my wife gets me really pissed off with some the silly stunts she pulls (I'll spare you the lurid details.) If she were just a girlfriend, I would have dumped her a long time ago, but since we have a family, I just can't throw in the towel that easily. We have to work out our problems. So, yes, I am a captive, but the joy of having a family is worth the price I pay of having to work things out with my wife.

So enjoy life because,ultimately, it doesn't matter.

Re: 10 Questions for Christians - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 03:49 PM PDT

It would do you good to take the time and actually try and understand scripture, and so many of your questions would already be answered by yourself.

Certainly you aren't suggesting that there exists one, Universal way to "understand scripture"....right? After all, the upwards of 3,400 denominations/sects of Christians, themselves, do not "understand" the text in the exact same way. Moreover, while they all rant and rave that the supposed "message" gets lost in the "religion", not one of them can objectively determine where the "religion" ends, and the "message" begins. It's one big, subjective grab-bag.

Re: Christianity: fear, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and selfish greed - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 03:48 PM PDT

seeker

I asked for an answer without defensive tones or offensive statements. But I still felt the stab of your knife, so that you could prove your point. I think the real power is in the ability to influence someone without tearing them down..."This will probably be incomprehensible to you, seeker. I don't know, you tell me" was this statement really needed in order for your point of view to be strong? I don't think so.

I can respect the rights of anothers persons free will to their opinions...I don't think that someone should be judged for having faith...

Show a little backbone seeker.

We are not obligated to use kid glove with you.

ALL the responses were civil -- you are just revealing your thin-skin.

I personally do NOT respect people who believe in absurdities they can NOT substantiate.

You are the equivalent of a scientolgist who makes the crazy-ass claim that humans have been taken over by aliens called Thetans or you are the equivalent of an insane man who claims people from the government he can only see are using him to decipher documents to save the world. You and the insane examples above are the same -- you make extraordinary claims you can NOT substantiate.

I can tolerate your beliefs. You can run around, naked, on all fours, howling at the moon-god, for all I care -- knock yourself out, but I can certainly think your beliefs are absurd; I certainly do NOT have to respect them. Furthermore, if you keep your beliefs to yourself and out of the government sector then we'll be fine.

I've concluded it is amazingly preposterous and NOT worthy of respect for a person to worship an invisible deity, in the sky and believing that a dead man (schizophrenic god/son) can come back to life, good as new, after being buried for three days and this some how magically altered "sin" so that if you want to get saved you simply let god know, telepathically, that you believe in him and accept him and then he won't torture you in the flames of hell for an eternity for what is sure to be the most evil, sadistic and vile sin -- unbelief. (massive sarcasm)

IMHO, I don't care if I hurt your feelings by being perfectly blunt and brutally honest by asserting: Faith is a brain malfunction, where you abandon ALL critical thinking skills and the voice of reason, where you willingly, choose to ignore and bury logic, steeping yourself in ignorance, so you can believe, in the unbelievable.

You believe in an invisible omni-present personal christian deity and the claims of christianity because of FAITH. Faith meaning -- believing in something that doesn't have objective evidence or is contrary to the supposed evidences (although you say you have evidence -- you simply settle for the flimsiest of supposed evidences and offer up a plethora of subjective evidences)

I contend faith is an unreliable method of acquiring and processing information.

Faith is nothing more than suspending your disbelief, ON PURPOSE, so as to make it fit in your warped, fantasy-filled world-view. You deliberately choose to forgo the reasoning powers your mind possesses and feebly fill in the blanks with subjective flim-flam and bloated, stretched-thin rationalizations, all the while NEVER providing objective evidence for your god-concept. You would have us believe that FAITH is a virtue but it is not. It is not supernatural; it is not spiritual -- it is a CHOICE. A choice steeped in massive delusion -- a construct of your own making, where you believe you have the one and only truth. You CHOOSE to waive your intellectual faculties and throw reasoning out the door, while convincing yourself by pretending that your irrational and insane interpretive claims are perfectly valid.

What's more -- to bolster my assertion -- FAITH is a deplorable method of obtaining and processing information; consider the devout Muslim: they too make extraordinary claims about Allah and how he works in their lives and that he gave us, his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the qur'an.

Funny how that whole FAITH thing works out. It allows people to believe in a whole host of absurd ideas.

I also abhor christians who use faith and the -- supposed voice of god, as their own -- which gives them a bogus sense of authority to push ALL their polluted agendas.

The same people who have faith in something they can't see, use the same unreliable method of obtaining and processing information. It is with this magical thinking, that they use to push many perverted agendas...

It's the same magical thinking (unreliable method of obtaining and processing information) that made it possible to burn witches at the stake.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to torture non-believers during the inquisition.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to kill non-christians during the crusades.

It's the same magical thinking that led to a massive cover-up and continued to let priest rape children in the Catholic faith, over and over. (Father So and So couldn't have raped little Johnny, he's a man of god).

It's the same magical thinking that let's the catholic church preach abstinence and the sins of condom use, allowing millions to die.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it possible for JWs to withhold blood transfusions, allowing their children to suffer and die.

It's the same magical thinking that allows polygamy to flourish, where women are held captive and children are raped and abused.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for parents of an eleven year old girl to die, because they only prayed over her, neglecting medical intervention.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it possible to relegate women to a subservient role to their husbands.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it impossible for women to become pastors or priests in certain sects like evangelicals, Baptists, and Catholics.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for Jews to mutilate their baby boys penises.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to justify slavery in America.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to justify not allowing interracial marriages.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for sick, christians to blow up abortion clinics.

It's the same magical thinking that allowed terrorists to fly planes into buildings.

It's the same magical thinking that preaches creationism over evolution, breeding ignorance, in our schools.

It's the same magical thinking that calls gay people an abomination.

It's the same magical thinking that discriminates against a gay couple having the same rights as everyone.

It's the same magical thinking that caused a 30 year old bloodbath in Northern Ireland, Catholics vrs. Protestants.

It's the same magical thinking that allows cults to brainwash their followers.

Faith is bullshit.

And I don't care that it bruises your fragile sensitivities

Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the spot of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck. -- Thomas Jefferson

--S.

Re: Christianity: fear, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and selfish greed - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 02:20 PM PDT

seeker, I was very mild towards you. You construed my reply as an attack because I touched a nerve and made you think about what you believe. If you're uncomfortable with that, that's not my problem. You asked, I answered. Read it again without exposing all your raw nerves and without your accusatory tone. You'll see that it was not a personal attack nor was I being hostile towards you and other believers.

Re: Intolerable - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 01:26 PM PDT

AntiC,

For me it revolved around that question too: what is life all about. You have a good job, decent colleagues, loving family (yet no wife/children), friends who genuinely care for you. You go to work in the morning, you return in the afternoon. For what?

To me, the realization that 'tipped me over to the dark side' was that, if we live for others, then that means others lives for us; which means everyone is held hostage by everyone else: forced to live because ending life would hurt others. You're in that case basically being held hostage. Also, at the time, it felt as if I was burdened with living and being born, whilst never having asked for it myself.

The realization that got me out again, years later, was that life was, in and of itself, meaningless, but can be *given* meaning. The sheer fact that my life still was and is meaningless didn't matter to me - the realization that it *could* have meaning, that it wasn't necessarily meaningless by definition, was enough for the clouds to part.

Funny, writing this suddenly makes me realize: I thought myself into depression, and it was thinking that got me out again. Just pity it took so long for the right thought to hit.

Meaning can be given in many ways that transcends one's own life: starting a family, raising kids, building a company, and yes, even religion (striving for the kingdom of god could be considered one way to give meaning, to make one's own life useful for a greater purpose).

I then went to explore/research the way to give meaning by religion, read the bible, koran and plenty of other books, only to realize it would be wishful thinking. Hoping that something could be true without it really thinking to be true.

Life isn't too bad, yes. And if it stays like this for the rest of my days, I'd be satisfied.

BTW... I like your remark, 'nothing is perfect'. Reminds me of the fox.

Peter.

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 11:33 AM PDT

All events conform to the laws of nature. There are no exceptions. Check with your library for books written by James Randi. He still has a million dollar offer to anyone who can prove a 'miracle'.

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 11:12 AM PDT

Ugh. Sid Roth. Can't stand him. I haven't even heard his supernatural show; I used to listen to him decades ago, when he was first on the air.

Messianics are a hot-button issue for me. Firstly, most aren't Jewish; they're Christians who want to experience something "exotic", something other than vanilla Christianity, while still, they think, cowering under the salvific umbrella of Jesus. Those who are of Jewish ancestry infuriate me. They claim to be rediscovering the messianism of Jesus' earliest followers, but they do no historical or archaeological research. Most of them haven't got the intellect. Instead, they take their theology wholesale from the Southern Baptists. Many of their congregational leaders, who style themselves as "Rabbi", have graduated from SBC seminaries. There isn't one of them who's had an independent thought since he or she got "saved".

A Christian who grows up in a fundamentalist environment has something of an excuse; it can be argued that he/she knows no better. These people have no such excuse. They're perfectly happy to abandon billions of human beings, including all of their Jewish ancestors, to eternal hell, so that they can have the security blanket for a few brief decades. It's beyond repugnant.

Actually, I'll modify that - we now have the spectacle of second generation messianics. They have their own "rabbinical seminary" now as well. They have their own house intellectual, Michael Brown, a colossal tool, who has a degree in Semitic languages from NYU. This gives him the aura of authority; when legitimate rabbis and Jewish scholars tell them they've bought into the Christian mangling of Old Testament prophecy, that the words and phrases don't mean what Christian apologists claim them to, they can now point to Brown and say, "Well, he's a smart guy, with a degree, and he says they do mean what we say they do!" The man should be shot.

Hate 'em. Hate 'em like fucking poison. I don't care that they think Jesus was the messiah. I don't even care if they think he was God (any more than I care that anyone believes it). I do care that they've adopted a belief in salvific exclusivism. Jews have absolutely NO business damning people to hell.

Everything about them is just monstrously inappropriate.

Re: Christianity: fear, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and selfish greed - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 11:07 AM PDT

Dear Seeker,

Re Science:

I certainly hope that you research the sites Sconnor provided. These sources are legitimate, authoritative, current and backed by peer-reviewed authors. Science is not opinion. Science is demonstration.

Re Attitudes:

I am often guilty of sarcasm and was even "chastised" for being a "wolf among sheep"...a very stupid dichotomy involving the pointless victim/victimizer scheme. It's not that we want to be condemning, it's just that True Believers tend to be sheep when it comes to credulity and wolves when it comes to conformity. Many of us have felt the sting of fleece.

Best of luck in your search,

BB

Re: Christianity: fear, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and selfish greed - Testimonies of Ex-Christians

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 10:25 AM PDT

I have learned that people will have their own opinion and views on how existence came about. I can respect the rights of anothers persons free will to their opinions. My standing problem is that while reading everyones comment...Everyone seems to be no different than those they throw stones at. I don't think that someone should be judged for having faith, just because you lost yours. Especially if that person (me) isn't judging you for the stand that you take.

I asked for an answer without defensive tones or offensive statements. But I still felt the stab of your knife, so that you could prove your point. I think the real power is in the ability to influence someone without tearing them down..."This will probably be incomprehensible to you, seeker. I don't know, you tell me" was this statement really needed in order for your point of view to be strong? I don't think so.

I think that its important that while we are condemning people for their actions and forceful nature, that we don't become that as well. I realize that this topic is a sensitive one, and it is human nature to get passionate (and somewhat disregarding of others feeling) when we strongly believe in something. I don't know you, and you don't know me...therefore it should be fair enough for neither one of us to pass judgement on each other.

I asked a question, not because I wanted to insult you (any of you) I asked because I really wanted to have a better understanding of your view point, without assuming. I appreciate the response that Sconnor gave, and I will take the time to look at the websites that you sent me.

PhucWadGawd I understand your passion, however, if you cannot answer me without being defensive or offensive. Then I would appreciate no response from you (please dont take offence to that). I just want an answer that stands on its own merits, without bashing me because I still have my faith. Its almost like a debate. You are more powerful when you can prove your point without attacking your opponent.

I look forward to every and anyones response =)

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 09:56 AM PDT

The laws of nature are the same in all places and at all times.
This is why science works, over and over again. Miracles, by definition, suspend the laws of nature. The best book on the subject is probably Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World."

Re: Modern Christian Miracles? - Letters to the Webmaster

Posted: 03 Oct 2009 09:09 AM PDT

Jari,

I've debated many a believer in such miracles, be they religious or just in the realm of the generic supernatural; or even those conspiracy nuts etc..

Unless someone is on-the-fence in such beliefs, you'll have little chance of convincing them that such miracles don't happen.

If you take the great time to debunk one of these miracles claims to their satisfaction, they will just keep citing more of them to you in an endless stream, until your exhausted.

It's really simple.
They believe because they have a wish to believe and nothing you can say is going to change their already made-up minds.

For instance, if you disprove one ghost sighting, they will just hand you another one and another.

If you disprove a miracle healing as a hoax, it will only mean that you found ONE instance of someone cheating.

You can never discount every single instance of miracles and until they are ready to see the truth, they will stay willfully ignorant till they die.

ATF

Posted by Christ at 12:06 AM
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