[Church_of_Christ] Re: Spiritual gifts
Greetings Ray, ED responding
ED before : No? The ended when all the parts had been received and therefore it was no longer "in part" but "whole".
Ray: They did? The passage doesn't say that. This is the meaning of the Greek word "teleios", translated "perfect"; that is perfect in the sense of being whole as opposed to partial. Nope. Sorry, but this is the common misunderstanding of the term that allows cessationists to get away with denying gifts. Teleios has nothing to do with a Whole as opposed to pieces. A completed jigsaw puzzle is not 'teleios', nor is a house that is 'built' nor a project that is 'finished'. Teleios is a nature term refering to the growth process. A teenage boy is 'in part', a grown man is 'teleios'. A sapling is 'in part', a fully matured tree is 'teleios'. Teleios means MATURE, as in something that grows and reaches full potential.
ED: It is not enough to say "Nope". I can equally say "Yep." But I do so knowledgably because this is in fact what I wrote my Masters' thesis upon. I do know and I do have the evidence and will happily provide it, but will have to do so most likely as an attachment to you since the study of the word covers over ten pages of the thesis.
Ray: This is further supported by the fact that the passage refers to our relationship with God as being 'through a glass darkly', a situation that will be rendered 'teleios' when I KNOW GOD as I am FULLY KNOWN. This has nothing to do with the full revelation of God in scripture because the scriptures do not fully reveal God. Nothing can do that except a relationship with God. We grow in relationship with GOd for now on earth. One day we shall KNOW HIM FULLY face to face.
ED: Here again is a statement that simply is false. Verse twelve reflects another situation altogether - Numbers 12 and the comparison of Moses' and Aaron and Miriam's revelation. See another post I made to Kent earlier this monring for details, please.
Ray: I beleive this passage refers to the final maturity and perfection of the church itself. It could also mean the maturity of the individual believer...but it CAN NOT mean the completion of the scriptures. That would violate the meaning of Teleios. The spiritual gifts were "in part", meaning what?
ED: Again see above, or refer to the lexicons. These are simply false statements.
Ray: There is nothing in scripture that supports this statement. Not one word. The purpose of the gifts is revealed in I Cor 12:3. They are for building up (edifying, which results in maturing) the church.
ED: You are mistaken. It is interesting that for centuries the "cessationist" view was the norm, standard. Evidently a lot of people thought they saw many words that led to this meaning. I still do.
Ray: There is no scripture to back you up on this one. We have only two examples in all of the NT of an actual prophecy, and none of tongues/interpretat
ED: Consider 1 Cor 12.
Ray: This is not in the context of I Cor 12: 8 - 10, so I don't know why you're asking it. It's also a red herring based on your false conclusion concerning the purpose of spiritual gifts. The answer to your question is yes, it has been delivered once and for all......and the gifts continue to be exercised and used throughout the world as they were intended to be.
ED: The purpose of the gifts as far as the assembly at Corinth is thoroughly discussed in 1 Cor 14. It was for the biblical sense of edification - that is, to reveal information thru which the church would grow in understanding. If gifts were exercised in a way that could not be understood, they were told to remail silent! It is no red herring or even red snapper. It is what the gifts were all about. 1 Cor 12:7 "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all." Any use of gifts that didn;'t lead to revealing and teaching or confirming God's will were nothing more than a clanging gong.
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