Family of God: [Church_of_Christ] Re: Holy Spirit 3

Greetings Kent, ED replying,

Kent: One of the key issues that bothers me is Acts 2. Peter says that the speaking in tongues witnessed by the Passover attendees was a fulfillment of Joel 2. Isn't a standard claim in the "Church of Christ" ("Sign Out Front" variety) that we are currently in "the last days"? Okay, if that's true, then shouldn't God still be pouring out His Spirit on all humanity?

ED: As far as I know coc/sof believe the fulfillment of Joel 2 began on Act 2 Pentecost and continues throughout this age. I certainly do. Everyone baptized receives the gift of the HS. But to equate the gift with its manifestation leads to misunderstanding. On Pentecost the apostles were baptized in the HS in fulfillment of the promise in Joel 2. The people saw and heard, v 33. Peter told them to be baptized and they would recieve the "gift of the HS, for the promise is to you . . . as many as the Lord calls", vs 38, 39. They were baptized but nothing is said of any manifestations. In fact, we find the opposite, v 43 it's the apostles doing the wonders & 5:12, 13 again the apostles alone so much that no one would dare join them. Then in chapter 8 we learn about the laying on of the apostle's hands that produced some visible results (inferred). In chapter 10 we discover Cornelius and folks got the same thing the apostles did in order to demonstrate that Gentiles are welcome. Next, we find in Corinth the manifestation (12:7) of spiritual gifts had become a problem, chapters 12-14.

My opinion is every baptized believer receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in fulfillment of Joel 2. This gift is manifested "as He (HS) wills." I do not see the HS willing to manifest wonders today, in spite of some claim. Moreover, I understand 1 Cor 13 to state that this is what was intended. I believe the HS is alive and active in our lives, as much so as ever, simply no need for the wonders and revelations once the conplete was received. I could be wrong.

I will add that God can and does whatever He wills. And I would never try to diminish this. I tie the wonders to the unleashed power of Satan that included possessing men. I believe the stronger than the strong man (Jesus) bound the strong man (the devil) and limited his powers. It appears to me that this includes possessing people. However, Rev. 20 tells us Satan will be released for a little while before Chrsit returns. If this reintroduces powers to cast demons out for a little while at the end, so be it.

>
> Does this passage not imply that the time period of prophecy and dreams
> and wonders is the same time period as when people can call on the name
> of the Lord and be saved?
>
> Does the passage give any indication whatsoever that it's only for the
> sons and daughters and slaves of a single generation, that of the Apostles?
>
> Look further at what Peter has to say:
>
> 1. You Jews in attendance at Passover are familiar with the ministry of
> Jesus.
> 2. You know Jesus was executed at your instigation.
> 3. You know God testified that Jesus was his spokesman, as demonstrated
> by miracles.
> 4. Now, let me tell you, this Jesus is no longer dead, but is risen,
> just as prophesied.
> 5. Therefore, all you Jews need to realize, God has made Jesus Lord and
> Messiah.
> 6. Ah, you're responding. Good. Here's what to do: Change your minds
> about the issue, and be immersed in the name of this Jesus, this
> Messiah. The result is that you will be saved, and that you will receive
> the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 7. This promise is for you, your kids, and for those far off, whomever
> God should call.
>
> To what "gift of the Holy Spirit" was Peter referring?
>
> Well, in context, the only Spirit mentioned previously in this passage
> is the very same one that would result in young men seeing visions and
> old men dreaming dreams (v. 17), and which was now being poured out
> causing the apostles to speak in tongues (v. 33).
>
> To what kids was Peter referring?
>
> Well, in context, the only sons and daughters mentioned previously in
> this passage are those who will prophesy when they receive God's Spirit
> (v. 17, and the special descendant of David (v. 30).
>
> To what promise was Peter referring?
>
> Well, in context, the only promise mentioned previously in this passage
> was the promised Holy Spirit poured out from the Father (v. 33).
>
> Does this "prove" that "spiritual gifts" were intended for the entire
> Christian age, or for all Christians?
>
> No. But it raises enough questions that I would be exceptionally
> hesitant to make the opposite claim, that spiritual gifts have ceased.
> This view uses a lot of human logic; the opposing view also uses a lot
> of human logic. Depending on which set of logic you choose to follow,
> you'll arrive at different conclusions. I instead choose to realize I'm
> just not smart enough to figure it out with 100% certainty. I would have
> preferred that God had given us a clear-cut statement of "Yes" or "No".
> But He chose not to do that, and so I'm left seeing both sides of the
> issue, having to straddle the fence.
>
> ----
>
> Further, and unrelated to the above argument, I believe we err when we
> separate "spiritual gifts" into two categories, that of miraculous gifts
> (healings, tongues, etc) and that of "normal" non-miraculous gifts
> (teaching, business administration, etc). The Bible does not, as far as
> I can ascertain, make such a distinction. We've made the distinction,
> but the Bible lumps both types into one category: God-given spiritual gifts.
>
> Paul even goes so far as to say that "to each one of us" was given
> grace, according to the Messiah's gift, just as prophesied, "He gave
> gifts to people" (Eph. 4:7-8, paraphrased), and then mentions miraculous
> gifts in the same breath as non-miraculous gifts (v. 11). He does
> similarly in Romans 12:6-8.
>
> If spiritual gifts have ceased, then whatever service we do, whatever
> teaching, whatever exhorting, whatever giving, leading, showing of
> mercy, being cheerful; these things are generated strictly by our own
> human natures, and have nothing to do with being modern-day gifts from
> God. I believe this view does violence to the scriptures, as well as
> removing God from interaction with His people (a view I grew up with,
> although everyone denied it).
>
> In short, I used to believe like you, that spiritual gifts ceased in the
> first century, meaning "miraculous spiritual gifts". But since then,
> I've come to believe that perhaps there's more to this issue than I had
> dreamed, and perhaps God can do what He wants when He wants however He
> wants, and I should quit trying to force-fit Him and His actions into my
> preconceived notions based on human logic rather than clearly-stated
> scripture.
>
> --
> Kent West <*)))><
> http://kentwest.blogspot.com
>

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